[Aquanet] a question of scarlet

[patchapin at mindspring.com]

Sorry, Paul, that was supposed to go to the entire list; haven't got the 
hang of the way this one works, I guess.  I thought we were just messing 
around with our favourites vs. other's favourites.

After looking at your web site, I think I see one firm reason why we like 
different reds -- your location and light, looking at your great landscapes 
(and I must say, I really liked your 'add a bit of fantasy' ones, 
watercolours that need a second look, a grin and some thought!), probably 
give you different things to see and paint in different colours as opposed 
to where I am.  This is one reason why I agree that there can be so many 
'rights'.  The landscapes which have been in my living/traveling areas are 
subjected to hard light, more intense colours and harsh shadows.  Again, 
since perception is in the eye of the painter, I don't have any backup for 
this.

Hilary Page did indeed write her book, which in some ways was an improvement 
on the groundbreaker by Michael Wilcox (his paint report book has since been 
updated) although he came back with the Colour Swatch series and others. 
There's a really neat book by Philip Ball, Bright Earth & The Invention of 
Color (both these guys are available on Amazon.com) in which he challenges 
style v. science in colour.  But, the problem remains the same before us --  
why take anyone's word for what's a 'good' red?

And how is it going to be a good red for you?  What are you looking for in a 
colour, and which is most important, the hue, the handling qualities, the 
ability of the colour to print, the permanence factor, etc.?  And although 
web sites help, the books leave out some brands, need updating almost the 
minute they are written, and are not anywhere as good as your own tests in 
your own light conditions.

Alizarin Crimson does indeed have a poor permanence rating next to more 
modern colours, but for me the hue outweighs that.  For me, permanence over 
a reasonable period is not an issue -- I do not worry about whether my 
watercolours are going to be true in a hundred years, or even existing, 
modern pollutants and tastes being what they are.  My framed paintings must 
last indoors and not exposed to really harsh light for perhaps thirty years 
at least, however.  Alizarin in some brands (and as it happens, some other 
hues with a 'Fugitive' rating or close to) will go the distance exposed to 
morning sun in Mexico, sun all day in South Texas but not in West Texas, and 
morning sun here for at least three years so far, according to my tests. 
[You ever want really odd looks from company, just keep taped-off test 
strips of colours on your guest bath windowsill.]

I use Quinacridone Rose for some things, but not as a red; when I need an 
orange, it is usually my start, with New Gamboge -- as with some tiny little 
poppies that I found near the Amargosa River, which are a startling pale 
orange (most of the flowers up here are white or yellow).

So along with our own perceptions, I'm thinking a 'good' hue of any kind 
might be dependent on where one is, what one paints, and maybe deep down, 
what are an artist's 'favourite' colours (I always have a hard time with 
that one, as I want to say "all of 'em").  Alas, that involves sometimes 
making some expensive forays to find out not only exactly what colour, but 
how the paint handles; in that, the 'Net is a wonderful resource in that we 
can research paints without necessarily having to purchase them all...

As you say, bottom line is your own decision.  Too bad we are still leaving 
some folks hanging out there by saying this, but in the long run, it surely 
is true.

pat chapin
www.patchapin.com

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "pbrand" <pbrand at buckeye-express.com>
To: <patchapin at mindspring.com>; "'pat davis'" <peedee at nucleus.com>; 
"'aquanet'" <aquanet at thedigitalbraintrust.net>
Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2008 8:00 AM
Subject: RE: [Aquanet] a question of scarlet


Pat, I stand by my choices. The reds I recommended are in my experience less
opaque than the cadmiums and handle well. As you noted to me off the net,
the brown you were referring to is for Perylene scarlet not Perylene red. I
haven't tried Perylene scarlet.

Hilary Page wrote an exhaustive study of watercolor pigments and paints,
with detailed lists by brand name (Hilary Page's Guide to Watercolor Paints
by Hilary Page - Dec 1996 available from Amazon). She ranks all the reds I
mentioned as 3 star (her highest rating) and either very good or excellent
light fast. She says that Pyrrol scarlet is "semi opaque" at full strength.

As far as genuine alizarin crimson (PR83 dihydroxyanthroquinone) is
concerned, Page says it is not as light fast as more modern pigments. I
grant you Quinacridone rose is not the same color, but it makes beautiful
violets or purples with ultramarine blue and its tendency toward bluish pink
should be useful for sunsets and flowers.

Pat, why "never mind Vermillion?" The Old Holland Vermillion extra is a
bright gorgeous red tending to orange with great tinting strength. I don't
use it as much as the other reds I listed, but it's nice to have if you
don't mind the expense.

You can see these reds in action in the watercolors on my website:
www.dadandrenee.com

As usual, the bottom line is make your own decision. Artists are (hopefully)
all individualists and one person's red may be another person's brown.

Paul Brand
pbrand at bex.net
www.dadandrenee.com

-----Original Message-----
From: patchapin at mindspring.com [mailto:patchapin at mindspring.com]
Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 6:55 PM
To: pbrand; 'pat davis'; 'aquanet'
Subject: Re: [Aquanet] a question of scarlet

Paul Brand wrote:
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "pbrand" <pbrand at buckeye-express.com>
To: "'pat davis'" <peedee at nucleus.com>; "'aquanet'"
<aquanet at thedigitalbraintrust.net>
Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 2:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Aquanet] a question of scarlet


> Consider Old Holland Vermillion Extra..........Daniel Smith Pyrrol
> Scarlet.............
>
> In fact these three reds from Daniel Smith may be all you need:
> Pyrrol Scarlet similar to cadmium red light or medium
> Perylene Red similar to cadmium red deep
> Quinacridone Rose bluer like Alizarin Crimson (in fact some of the tubes
> labeled Alizarin Crimson are now a quinacridone color).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
Boy, would I argue with this one.  Quinacridone Rose/Permanent Rose is a
cold rose pink, not at all like true Alizarin Crimson, which is a deep,
dark, cold red. Both of them are transparent, and in my mind, you need both.

Perylene Red and Pyrrol Scarlet, never mind Vermillion -- are not at all
transparent, and wouldn't be my choices at all, since one of them veers
toward an orange, one to a brown, and one is a different chemical tone of
Cad Red without the handling response.

That's just me, of course.  As I said earlier, probably everyone on this
list could come up with a different 'necessary' list of reds.
pat chapin
www.patchapin.com