[Aquanet] mineral violet?

Sun Dec 9 14:11:07 EST 2007

Miriam,

Mineral Violet is occasionally used by Charles Reid to punch a pure color
note, and mentionned in his supply list, usally as optional.

Barry is right on mixing, and Charles usually mixes his violets (on paper
beware!).

That being said, I think the Mineral Violet Charles uses, is from Holbein as
he mostly uses Holbein and W&N. He favors Holbein because their tube paints
do not become crumbly when drying and retain a creamy consistency in palette
wells. Their mineral violet is a complex of silica, alumina, soda and sulfur
and I am pretty sure it is PV15, although I did not find it mentioned on
Holbein website. It is the same pigment that W&N use in their Ultramarine
Violet (which Charles also mentions alternatively to Mineral Violet in some
descriptions of his palette). 

PV15 is indeed a mineral pigment, although different from Maimeri and other
PV16 Manganese based Mineral Violets, and it will behave as such, in
particular it won't be staining like Winsor Violet (PV23), a heavily
staining synthetic pigment.

The hues of Winsor Violet and W&N Ultramarine Violet (and so Holbein Mineral
Violet I infer) are close though. They are different from the Manganese
based Mineral Violets, which are much closer to red.

W&N Ultramarine Violet PV15 is also more transparent than both Winsor Violet
and PV16 Mineral Violet.

Personally I use W&N Ultramarine Violet (very - very occasionally) as
Holbein paints are not available in France.

Given all that technical data, I should add that in his workshops Charles
professes anyway that the exact paints you use has little importance, much
less than knowing how they behave, by themselves and mixed. That is what he
says, and he is right of course, but in the end I came to use a palette
close to his.

I am sure you'll enjoy the workshop. Charles is not only a wonderful artist,
but also a great teacher and a wonderful person. Give him a hello from me!

My very best regards,

Gilles Durand

  _____  

From: aquanet-bounces at thedigitalbraintrust.net
[mailto:aquanet-bounces at thedigitalbraintrust.net] On Behalf Of Barry D.
Lindley
Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2007 5:03 AM
To: 'pat davis'; 'miriam'
Cc: 'aquanet'
Subject: Re: [Aquanet] mineral violet?

Pat's information is right on the mark.  Mineral or Manganese Violet is very
different from Winsor or carbazole violet (=dioxazine purple).  Mn Violet is
lighter in value and more interesting in texture by far, but you cannot get
very dark with it.  

My Daniel Smith is somewhat duller than cobalt violet, which is also fairly
light in value, nice in texture, somewhat warmer.  I think that, except for
delicate florals, you are much better off with the ultramarine/rose mixture
suggested in Handprint - much more versatile.  Mn Violet is not worth the
money, unless you want its special delicacy and textural effects, and I
would prefer Co Violet in those cases, if you are happy with the warmer hue.

M.Graham is bringing out a mineral violet in their new additions, but I
haven't had a chance to test theirs yet.

Barry D. Lindley
Paintings and Drawings
www.aristotle.net/~blindley 

  _____  

From: aquanet-bounces at thedigitalbraintrust.net
[mailto:aquanet-bounces at thedigitalbraintrust.net] On Behalf Of pat davis
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2007 6:25 PM
To: miriam
Cc: aquanet
Subject: Re: [Aquanet] mineral violet?

Hi, Miriam

I went to the paints section at Handprint and below is the information I
got. Mineral violet is the Maimeri name, but apparently it is PV 16 so the
same pigment is used as shown by other manufacturers. I have not used any of
these personally, however, so there may be differences.

FWIW
pat

PV16

manganese ammonium pyrophosphate (1868)

manganese violet

Daniel Smith

038

3

2

62

2

3

2

327

+1

8,8

PV16

permanent mauve

Winsor & Newton

491

2

1

68

4

1

2

332

+3

8,8

PV16

mineral violet

MaimeriBlu

460

0

3

64

1

3

1

329

+2

8,8

PV16

manganese violet

DaVinci

254

2

1

60

2

1

1

332

+7

8,8

PV16

manganese violet - blue

Old Holland

196

3

0

48

3

3

0

334

+4

8,5

 <http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/IMG/RC/rcPV16.jpg>  Manganese violet PV16
is a very lightfast, semitransparent, lightly staining, dark valued, dull
<http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/palette1.html#purple> purple pigment,
available from 4 pigment manufacturers worldwide. The
<http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/pigmt6.html#bluetable> ASTM (1999) rates
its lightfastness in watercolors as "excellent" (I) and my 2004 tests agree.
In watercolors PV16 undergoes a moderate
<http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/cds.html> drying shift, lightening and
losing saturation. 

The PV16 pigment is very consistent across paint manufacturers. Daniel Smith
manganese violet was a principal source for this pigment: slightly bluer and
lighter valued than other brands, and blossoming more when rewetted. The
Winsor & Newton permanent mauve, previously available only in dry pans, is
now (2005) available in a tube formulation; it has a slightly less
saturated, and darker color that lightens into effective tints and lifts
almost completely to produce cutouts or sculptured edge effects. The
MaimeriBlu mineral violet is more staining and very opaque. Hilary Page
noted discoloration in her sample of Old Holland, which may not have been a
single pigment paint; my swatch began life as a dull, scabby purple, not at
all pleasant to look at, and the vehicle (or pigment?) discolored to a
browish cast after about a month of sunlight exposure. Two thumbs down! 

PV16 is the most lightfast balanced purple pigment available in watercolors,
and its recent addition to the DaVinci and Winsor & Newton is a welcome
development. While it has an assertive and distinctive pigment personality,
this becomes less conspicuous when the paint is part of a shadow mixture. It
is attractive both in full strength and wash applications, but for the most
characteristic color appearance it must be applied with confident, juicy
brushstrokes and left to dry without fussing or retouching. It is especially
good in floral painting, both as a muted floral color and to add texture and
body to browns mixed with deep yellow or orange paints. The same hue can be
mixed from ultramarine blue (
<http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/waterb.html#PB29> PB29) with quinacridone
rose ( <http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/waterc.html#PV19R> PV19) or
quinacridone violet ( <http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/waterc.html#PV19B>
PV19), depending on whether you want more saturation or darker values. In
many respects, PV16 handles like thioindigo violet (
<http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/waterc.html#PR88> PR88) and can play a
similar role in landscape or botanical palettes. See also the section on
<http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/pigmt1b.html#manganese> manganese pigments.

miriam wrote: 

Mineral Violet was on my supply list for an upcoming
Charles Reid workshop.

Has anyone used it and is it different from Cobalt Violet/ Winsor Violet or
Carbolzene Violet?

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